Shomer Negiya and Kiruv

NCSY does a lot of good, but it has a big downside, too. It's what they call the "poroh adumah" effect -- makes bad good and good bad at the same time. The interaction between boys and girls that takes place there often has a negative effect on people's lives. That includes advisers as well. So depending on where you’re holding when you become associated with NCSY, it could have a very positive or a crushingly negative effect on you.

And the whole program is therefore subject to controversy, if it is permitted to have an organization that puts some people in danger in order to save others.

That's not evil incarnate....but it may well be something that many who are already frum but human would like to stay miles away from.

If you are becoming less frum and getting involved with girls because of NCSY then get out immediately. And that means now.

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Boy-girl relationships are very strong. The longer you're into them the harder it is to get out. Like all addicting-habit forming behaviors, the earlier and the faster you get out, the more likely you are not to get back in.

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The thing is though that if you want to be mekarev people and work with Baalei Teshuva, you can do so without having to do with guys. There are plenty of Kiruv organizations besides NCSY. So if you can get the benefits without the problems, what's the point?

Also, you should know that being friends and, mingling with guys is prohibited according to Halachah (see the "Platonic Relationships" forum). How far, then, are you willing to violate Halachah to be Mekarev people? Are you willing to eat at McDonalds with non-religious people that you believe can become frum through your intervention? Are you willing to violate Negiyah in order to be Mekarev guys? How far exactly would you go, and how did you decide how much of your own Neshoma you are willing to corrupt for Kiruv?

Remember, too, that in NCSY besides having to do with the non-religious guys that you are being Mekarev, a greater issue is the fact that you will be mingling with other advisors, or Kiruv workers who are guys, becoming friends with them socially with no excuse that you are being Mekarev them. Such contact has been known to literally change the lives, for the worse, of course, of those involved.

The Mitzvah of V'ahavta L'rayachah Komochah does not require you to put yourself in spiritual danger for the sake of others. On the contrary - it is prohibited according to the majority of Poskim to put yourself in physical danger in order to save someone else's life; so too the Seforim tell us it would be prohibited to put yourself in spiritual danger (sofek sakanah) in order to save the spiritual life of another.

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You can be Mekarev someone despite the fact that while doing so you're becoming friends with the girl adviser next to you. If let’s say we found out that advisers in a Kiruv organization were being served non-Kosher fish during Shabbatons. Does that mean they weren’t able to be Mekarev people? One thing has nothing to do with the other. So it’s wrong for the NCSY advisers to become friends with each other but they can still be Mekarev people.

Granted, it's a tainted Kiruv and it may not be worth it if this is what they're doing, but the people who are keeping Shabbos because of the organization do not disappear.

There is no rule that says that just because an organization does much good in one area, that they cannot be doing bad in another area at the same time.

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Whether NCSY should or should not be here does not depend as much on how much they accomplish but on how "kosher" their methods are. This is the rule when it comes to these things: Hashem knew, when He created the Halachah, that one day there will be an NCSY, and that it will be the only kesher many kids have to Yiddishkeit, and nevertheless he said do not mingle boys and girls together.

In other words, the ends do not justify the means. As Rav Yisroel Salanter said, "Our job is not to accomplish, nor to make things happen. Rather, our job is to do."

We do not own the Torah so that we can say let's forget about this prohibition because by doing so it gives us greater returns. We don’t know what Hashem wants our actions to accomplish on this world, we just know what He wants our actions to be.

Where's the limit to how much Aveiros you would allow because the good it does outweighs it? And what scale are you using?

Maybe even one Aveirah done by an adviser is not worth making 20 kids frum, since the kids were Tinokos Shenishbu to begin with, and therefore not responsible for their Aveiros, but the advisers were plain wanton sinners?

See, we can't make such calculations. We don't own the Torah. We just do what Hashem said.

And in the particular case of NCSY, the question is not even applicable, since they do have the option of changing their methods so that boy and girl advisers will be separate, like other Kiruv organizations. And even though it’s possible that they will not attract as many kids as they do now, but they will have the same extensive network through the OU, and they will be reaching a tremendous amount of kids anyway.

At that point, the question is should they allow boys and girls to mingle in order to attract even MORE kids?

And to that, the answer would have to be an obvious "no."

Even Rav Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg ZTL who permitted a Kiruv organization called Yeshurun in France that involved boys and girls both, demanded that they do not mingle - even the kids, surely the advisers - and that the advisers be total Yorei Shomayim. And even under those circumstances, many Rabbonim would not permit. And this was in France where this was the ONLY WAY to stop intermarriage and to reach the non-religious youth.

So the answer to whether NCSY should continue or not is "(c) - None of the above". It should change, and make its methods safe and kosher, and then continue its wonderful work.

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The difference between this site and NCSY is that I sincerely doubt that anybody who refuses to have the Internet will change their mind and get it solely for this site. So what we are doing here is taking people who already have internet access and improving their situation by giving them this site.

As opposed to NCSY where there are advisers etc. who would never have been talking to boys except for the fact that they are in NCSY. That makes their situation worse.

NCSY poses a danger for its volunteers, this site hopefully distracts its users from the dangers.

What Aish HaTorah is doing and what NCSY is doing are two different things. Aish HaTorah only causes the "mingling" of the non-religious Jews they are trying to me Mekarev. Presumably, those Jews were not against mingling with guys anyway. NCSY causes people who would otherwise NOT have been in this danger and puts them there.

Kids who are not religious, by coming to mixed groups, they are not going down. But for religious kids who otherwise WOULD be separate, it is a whole 'nother story. That's the problem.

There is so much Kiruv that can be done, enough to spend your whole life at, without putting yourself in danger of ruining your Neshomah with guys. So if the choice exists to do Kiruv through NCSY or a safe approach, what's the Sheailah?

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Supervision is not a realistic solution. It doesn’t work - experience shows that. When boys and girls mingle, they will become friends, exchange phone numbers and continue the connection, regardless of the level of supervision during official Kiruv sessions. Such supervision exists officially in many coed schools as well, and it doesn’t prevent problems there, either.

As far as the percentages, they are tragic. But we are not permitted, nor should we want to try to solve the problem in ways that Hashem has told us are wrong. That just makes us part of the problem, not the solution.

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The only reason we do Kiruv is because it is the Ratzon Hashem - it makes Hashem happy.

So doing Kiruv in a way that makes Hashem unhappy defeats its whole purpose.

Like on Sukkos - there’s a Mitzvah to shake a Lulav, but if you steal a Lulav, it is not kosher.

So if the only Lulav you have available is a stolen one, can you ask: How will I shake a Lulav if I don't steal it? Therefore I have to steal it!

No. In such a case, Hashem does not expect you to shake a Lulav, since the only way to do it is through a sin. Ones rachmanah patrei - It's beyond your control - you are an ones.

So too here, if the only way you can be Mekarev X amount of people is by doing things that violate the will of Hashem, then Hashem doesn’t expect you, or want you, to do it.

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The solution is to learn to do Kiruv the proper way. Rabbi Avigdor Miller was Mekarev thousands of boys and girls through his books without any programs at all, and the internet is a tremendous vehicle for Kiruv without any intermingling between boys and girls (you're on one such platform now). There are ways. And if not everyone will be reached through these methods; our responsibility, and G-d's expectations of us, end there. There is no way to predict which methods of Kiruv will be ultimately more successful, especially since much of this works through siyata d'shmaya (who would have thought that in the 70's the non-religious would be banging down the doors of Baal teshuva institutions?).

What is "necessary" is that we fulfill the Will of Hashem, and that necessity is the most important. The "necessity" of having boys and girls mingle in order to be Mekarev people takes a back seat to the necessity of the advisers not doing Aveiros.

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The fact that problems don’t happen "all the time" isn't an answer. People don’t "always" fail a nisayon, but the fact that they have opportunity to do so, and that it sometimes does so, makes it a nisayon - and we want to stay away from them.

Kiruv is a wonderful thing, but the point is that you do not NEED to put yourself in these nisyonos to do Kiruv. There are plenty of ways to do Kiruv safely, and the need for Kiruv is so great that you will be able to spend all the time you allocated for it in a safe environment without worrying about whether you should run to NCSY.

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The principle of chatoh bishvil sheyizkeh is only relevant where you need the aveirah in order to be mezakeh someone else with a Mitzvah. But you don’t need a mixed Kiruv group to me Mekarev someone - you can always go and be Mekarev someone of the same gender in a non-mixed environment and be mezakeh someone with the same Mitzvah. To be mekarev a girl is no more or less a mitzvah than to be mekarev a boy. And since the supply of same-gender Kiruv prospects is not going to be depleted, you don’t need the aveirah at all.
Second, the principle only works when upon doing the aveirah you are certain to be mezakeh someone with a Mitzvah. But you may or may not succeed in making your prospect frum at all. Kiruv is kind of like playing baseball --- you try for a home run all the time, but if you hit three out of ten you’re doing great. Neither the Gemora nor Tosfos says you can do an aveirah in the hope of maybe being mezakeh someone with a Mitzvah, and maybe not.

Third, even in a case where the Mitzvah is guaranteed, all it says is that you can violate a single aveirah a single time in order to be mezakeh someone with a Mitzvah. But it does not say that you can violate an aveirah over and over, accumulating many aveiros in order to be mezkeh someone else. The idea of Mitzvah Rabbah is clearly in order to tip the balance between the Zechus the other person gets and the Aveirah that you are doing. But multiple aveiros may accumulate to outweigh a Mitzvah Rabbah. And since you have to spend much time doing this aveirah in order to be mezakeh the other with the Mitzvah, you have no source that it is permitted.

For the record, there is a machlokes rishonim whether one big aveirah is worse than several small ones or vice versa. The difference manifests in a choleh on Shabbos who needs in order to be cured, let’s say, 5 kezaysim of meat. You have 5 kezaysim of non-kosher meat available, and he can eat them, thereby incurring 5 aveiros, or you can shecht a cow on Shabbos, getting one aveirah, but one that is greater than eating treif. There is a machlokes rishonim which is better.

There is much discussion about the topic of many small aveiros vs. one big one - and that machlokes is central to all of them.

In any case, there is a big difference between someone doing an aveirah, thereby being mezakeh someone else, versus doing many aveiros in the hope of maybe being mezakeh someone, when you don’t even need to do the aveiros in order to provide the same zechus to someone else.

On another level, there is also the idea that even Pikuach Nefesh is not permitted when it is done on a constant, hefker basis. As the Chazon Ish said - chilul Shabbos is permitted for pikuach nefesh, not bittul Shabbos. Meaning, pikuach nefesh must remain the exception. Once chilul Shabbos becomes the norm, and shmiras Shabbos the exception, even pikuach nefesh is not permitted. And so, institutionalizing the idea that anyone anywhere can always and does always perform this aveirah in order to be mekarev people is not the same as the case of Tosfos. You are not talking about chilul of tznius, you are talking about bitul of tznius.

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The best course of action in a case of being mekarev someone of the opposite gender would be to find someone else to.. Find a Kiruv professional or, if he was frum once and is now off the derech, someone who is successful with such people (they are few and far between unfortunately) and work through them.

As far as responsibility goes, you have no responsibility to try to be Mekarev every boy that you have access to. Since there is the obvious boy-girl problems involved, you have no obligation to get involved. On the contrary.

As far as his future is concerned, remember that Hashem runs the world, and even though He knew that you would have access to your cousin, He still said girls should stay away from boys. Hashem runs the world. If you do His will, your cousin is in much better hands than if you try to second guess Him.

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Whether making a non-frum person religious is considered pikuach nefesh depends. If you are going to consider this boy a Tinok Shnishbah, who is not responsible for his sins, then making him religious would not be Pikuach Nefesh according to the numerous Poskim who hold that only to save a Jew from willful sin is considered Pikuach Nefesh.

If you believe this to be Pikuach Nefesh, would you also say that it would be permitted to call this boy on Shabbos, or eat with him in McDonald’s if doing so is the only way to talk to him? This is what you are implying if you invoke the Pikuach Nefesh law. There is no middle ground.

There is also no halachic obligation for this girl to be mekarev every teenage boy she may have access to. There are plenty of girls available to be brought back, including those who have already shown interest in Judaism. They are available from Kiruv organizations. This boy has shown zero interest in Judaism at all. Being Mekarev her cousin under these circumstances involves much personal one on one talk and close association with a non-religious teenage guy. There would be lots of personal contact, in no organizational setting, with no supervision or other girls involved. Just one teenage boy and one teenage girl, and his boundaries as a non-religious guy are way beyond hers. He's also totally uninterested in religion at all at this point. There is absolutely zero obligation for a teenage girl to take that upon herself. Again. If she’s worried about Jewish neshomos, there are Neshomos who have already shown interest available, female ones, with unfortunately not enough people to reach out to them.

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Refusing to talk to the opposite sex will not turn anyone off. At least no one reasonable. Every religion has their rules, and people understand that. Particularly mingling among the sexes is something that people understand is subject to religious restrictions. On the contrary, they will probably be more apologetic of themselves than upset with you. They will say "I'm sorry, I didn't realize". Nobody wants to step on the religious sensitivities of others. And nobody will begrudge you them. If you do it in a polite manner, they will understand.

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If people think it’s rude that you will not go with them on a class trip on Shabbos (it’s college let's say) would you say that well, maybe I'm going to turn someone off so let me be Mechalel Shabbos?

If a friend of yours thinks its rude of you not to taste her newest cooking experiment that she is so proud of because you have these "religious hang-ups" - it's not kosher - would you eat treif in order not to "turn her off"?

We must always try to attract people to the Torah, but violating the Torah to do so is self-contradictory. So, too, you cannot be friends with guys even if they consider it rude, since that, too, is a violation of the Torah.

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Boy-Girl Relationships III

Your Nefesh is not what decides right from wrong, especially since you have a Nefesh Habehamis, which feels great about things that are assur.

In fact, the more assur something is, the better it's going to feel - as the posuk says - mayim genuvim yimtaku, stolen waters taste sweet.

With all Taavos, but so much more so with this one, the good feeling you have does not mean what the feeling is drawing you towards is good. Your hormones are literally like drugs, and they soak your brain in these chemicals that make you feel all sorts of things. But it doesn’t work the way you’re working it - it's not that if you have the feeling that means it’s a good thing; rather, when we know of a good thing (in this case the proper marriage partner), we develop the feelings. These feelings can hit anybody at any time and direct you almost anywhere. It’s playing with fire.

I really know that these feelings make you FEEL like this is right, but feelings aren't a gauge of right and wrong.

If someone does something wrong, we don’t know how bad that makes the person who did it, because we don’t know their nisyonos - al tadim es chavercha ad shetigia l'mkomo. But we surely do know what Hashem says is right and wrong - that’s what we have a Torah for!

I have no idea whether a boy is potentially a good zivug. But I do know 2 things for a fact:

1) Whether he is or isn't should not be determined solely by these "feelings" - you could have gotten these feelings of attraction for a guy and then found out he’s married, or not Jewish - your hormones have no way of knowing whether the person they are drawing you to is your zivug. You have a yetzer horah whose job it is to give you nisyonos, and the fact that you have these strong feelings may mean this is one of them.

2) Violating the prohibition of negiyah is surely wrong, even if this boy is your zivug min hashamayim. Even though we can't know how hard it is for a person to resist what is wrong, because we don’t know their nisyonos, we DO know that what they are doing is wrong.

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Guys aren’t "evil". Evil is only when you choose something, not if Hashem made you a certain way. That having been said, it is clear in all our Mussar seforim as well as in Chazal and Poskim, including the Shulchan Aruch, that men should "stay far, far away from women" unless necessary, because of the likelihood that trouble will happen. And that applies to all men.

Nobody's putting down men. Saying that someone has a certain yetzer horah does not mean you are putting them down. Wealthy people have a yetzer horah that poor people don’t, and vice versa; tzadikim have yeter horahs that we cannot even imagine - kol hagodol mechaveiro yitzro godol hemenu. Men have yetzer horahs too, that women do not (and perhaps vice versa as well). That does not mean anything negative about them

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What you feel are the last remnants of the "bad habit" fighting you. That feeling of "something missing", too, will go away with time. You’ve come so far, this is the last, final challenge before you reach the finish line. Don’t give in! As happy as you are now that you’ve come this far, you will be even happier when you pass this!

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Being friends with the opposite sex hardly constitutes "everything".

Second, it is not up to us to make prohibitions - Hashem does it. Don't shoot the messenger.

Third, there is no more incidents of children going "off the derech" in those communities or families that do not allow mingling of the sexes than there are among those that do allow it. In fact, in Modern Orthodox communities the promiscuity levels are much, much, much greater. And so are the incidents of drug use, particularly weed.

The reason kids are running away has nothing to do with Judaism or its "restrictions" - it has much more to do with Jews, meaning, the way people in the kid's life deal with him. That includes (in order of importance) parents, authority figures, role models, and the community at large.

Next. The Torah does not "restrict" anything. You are free to violate the Torah if you wish. The free will is yours. The Torah, in its benevolence, informs us of the consequences of our actions. If I tell you not to go swimming because there are sharks in the water, I did not "restrict" you; I enlightened you. Now the decision is yours.

So too the Torah enlightens us as to the consequences to our souls as a result of certain behaviors. Now the choice is yours. You want to swim with the sharks? That’s your choice, but don’t blame G-d for warning you.

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This particular Yetzer Horah of looking at pornography is often agonizingly difficult to overcome. The reason is not merely because it is so strong, but also because whereas by other Taavos - such as Kovod, money, and power - you can enlighten yourself into a state of victory over the Yetzer - you can learn to laugh at Kovod; to be a Someach b'chelko; and to not care about power - there is no philosophy, no enlightenment, and no proper attitude that will cause you to not care about this Taavah. The only way to fight it is with simple self-restraint. That’s why "Kedusha" means staying away from this specific Taavah. You have to simply "say no" to this Taavah; for the others, you can simply learn that there is nothing there that you even need to say "no" to.
Your first course of action is to make Gedorim and Siyagim. Keep the computer in a public place if possible; allow others to use your computer when you’re not there (you may be afraid that others will see your "trail." And by the way, it's not only the Temporary Internet Files that show where you've been. Even if you erase those, there are still ways to see your history).

After that, you need to realize that the only way you can get out of this is simply by fighting the urge to do it. Tehillim helps of course, but just like Tehillim helps for a sick person. Meaning, you still have to go to the doctor. Here, you are your own doctor, and your self-restraint is your medicine.

There is one "trick" that I have suggested to people that sometimes helps. The way this particular Tavah works is, you constantly need to refresh it with new images. There is so much available that the Yeter Horah is always making you look for more, and it makes you bored of the same old thing after a very short while. So if you limit your Yetzer Horah to a small amount of images, using only them and never going for new ones, it will eventually become boring, and at that point it will be easier for you to break away from the whole thing.

At this point I must clarify that I am not allowed to, nor do I have any intention of, telling you to look at this stuff. Rather, I am merely advising you to reduce and limit what you are looking at already, in order that it will be easier to break away totally.

Please understand also, that even though the situation looks and feels bleak, with much effort and much prayer, Hashem can give you Siyata D'Shmaya. You never know where - and when - Hashem's salvation will come.

You are fighting a very tough battle. The main thing is to keep fighting and not give up. Hashem is the one who decides what our Nisyonos are, and how hard they will be. He is watching you fight this battle, and Shepping Nachas from your efforts. It is those efforts that make Hashem proud. And the energy that you put into those efforts is what brings Shefa and Brachah to then entire world.

In a time where Klall Yisroel needs Shefa and Brachah so desperately, the efforts you are putting in to fighting this Taavah are so important to us and to Hashem. Please, for all of our sakes, keep on fighting.

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It’s possible you can end up with a girldriend "in der richtiger tzeit". But there is not much you can do now about it. The pain you feel is what happens when you play with fire and get burnt. The attraction between men and women is mad strong (to say the least) and it lasts far after the relationship itself terminates. I don’t want to sound cruel, but you must understand that the pain was self-inflicted because you knew you should have stayed away from this girl to begin with. There are many problems that can result from hanging out with girls, and getting hurt is one of them. I am sorry, but there is not much to do except let time heal.

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Please understand that the attraction between men and women is designed to keep marriages intact - which takes much effort of course - and is very, very strong. It messes with your head, your feelings, and your body. Everything about you is involved. Breaking such a bond is not really supposed to happen, except in cases of divorce, which is a total catastrophe according to the Torah (the Mizbeach itself cries, Chazal say). There is no medicine that can counter the pain of such a breakup. Time will do it. You will get over it -- everyone does -- even though right now it feels so not that way. Please keep the faith and hang in there.

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Having a "crush" isn't what's wrong; what's wrong is being around the girl and/or thinking about her in a way that causes the "crush". You didn’t choose your feelings, but you caused them. (If you didn’t do anything to cause them then you are not responsible for them at all).

You cannot just undo those feelings at will. The best way to deal with it is to stay away form the girl or any connection to her, and focus on your learning and doing Mitzvos. Crushes are like bratty kids. The more you give them attention by telling them "stop it!" the more annoying they become.

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One of the many, many major problems with just being "friends" with the opposite gender is that so often, without intent or warning, it becomes much more. And I say "becomes" because nobody proactively has to make it that way; it just happens. That is the way Hashem made the world. And that is one of the benefits of staying away from the opposite gender, because when this happens - and there is no way to predict when or to whom this will happen - it can be mean a seriously painful, traumatic experience. People think that they'll have these friends, fall in love, and then get married. The problem is, just because you fall in love with someone does not mean that they are a good marriage-partner for you.

This happens especially often in coed schools, where the girls and boys in the same grades become friends, but the girls, being girls, are ahead of the boys, maturity-wise. So usually, the boy, who is like 17 maybe, falls for a 17 year old classmate or grademate girl, when at the same time, the girl is looking for someone older than that. More often than not, it's therefore the boy who gets hurt.

People who hang around together or work together or are friends with each other can fall for each other almost at random - and you have no way to know when or how its going to hit. The other person could be married, not Jewish, not frum, or, even more painful, not interested. They can have totally different ideas of what they want out of life, or want totally different type of person.

Part of the reason why the divorce rate is so ridiculously high in the secular and so-called modern world is because people first meet, then become friends, then fall in love, then decide to get married. Objectively, the person least able to make a rational decision regarding whether to get married is someone who is in love. It's like making career decisions literally when your brain is soaked with mind-altering substances.

When this happens, and you or they or both of you decide it’s not a match, well, there are very few things more painful. (An exception to this is getting married because you’re in love and then deciding that it’s not a match).

Is this a punishment? Well, any pain is a punishment. But if a person crosses a busy intersection on a red light, it would be unusual for him to ask if his broken bones are a punishment from G-d for doing a dangerous thing. Of course it was a punishment, but it is more: it was a choice - you risked it on your own. You threw the dice and it landed on the wrong number. And if someone is friends with the opposite gender, it's like crossing on the red light.

Of course, sometimes we are "born" in the middle of the intersection, or cross without knowing the light is red. But regardless, it’s still as painful.

And part of the pain is that it feels as if it will never subside. People who are so intensely attracted have their brains soaked in mind altering liquid secretions that cause them to feel, and therefore think, that the feelings will never subside.

So now the question is what to do. First, despite what it feels like now, it will subside. You will get over it. It takes a long time but it will happen. Better if you don't try to wrench it out of your mind. For the way the mind works is, the more you try to not think of something, the more you end up thinking of it. (Just watch this: Try hard not to think of a pink elephant. See what I mean?)

So just let it take it's time, and when these thoughts come up, don't try to push them out of your head, just let them tide. They will die soon.

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People think that boy/girl associations are wrong only if they are not 100% innocent, and it is the lack of innocence that is the problem. Therefore, they will often allow 4-year-old boy and girl neighbors to grow up and become teenagers together because they became associated in a totally innocent way.

This is a problem. Because the Torah does not want boys and girls to be friends, even if they grew up together since they were 4. That is why, after a certain age, we separate them. That’s what should have been done in your case.

Imagine, for instance, if you and your 4 year old little boy neighbor used to go swimming together, which is not an altogether impossible assumption. Would you say that it would be OK for both of you to continue this practice throughout adolescence with the justification that you have been doing it since you were four?

It’s the same thing with being friends. Friendships between boys and girls are prohibited by the Torah.

The reason why people have a difficult time seeing this comparison is because with a friendship, the bond that was created while you were still innocently young is what connects you today as well, in other words the friendship was already created in an innocent way. It’s not as if you are deciding to be friends today. That innocent friendship lasts even into adolescence. So it seems innocent even now. As opposed to the swimming, where each time you jump into the pool you are making a new decision to do so.

That is true, but it doesn’t matter. The friendship is prohibited now, even if the decision to create it, and its creation, happened innocently. Your relationship was OK then, but not now.

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There are many people in MO schools and it is therefore hard for them to stop being friends with boys/girls.

Sigh. It's true. That's one of the reasons MO schools are not accepted – it’s not sinas chinam at all, it’s simply, that if someone wants to do good, they can’t because aveiros such as this are shoved down their throat! And you’re taught - either explicitly or implicitly - that there’s nothing wrong with these things when there really is.

They do this in order to satisfy the desires of the MO parents, who do or approve of these things. The schools have to be not so religious because their "customers" want it.

But that doesn't help you. If you're in a Modern Orthodox school, there's almost no way for you not to talk to boys. What you need to do now is, take it step by step. First step is, just set your goals. Know that the situation that you are in is not desirable, and, without judging anyone, understand that it is not your fault that you are there - you did not choose your upbringing. Continue growing and learning about Judaism and what it is, so that when you are more in control of your lifestyle choices, you will be able to make them in the way that represents your own wishes as opposed to others making your lifestyle choices for you. Maybe you can leave that school, if not now, then later on, or at least, when you graduate you can decide to go to a seminary more in tune with Halachah and Daas Torah. In the meantime, you should try to make friends who are being brought up not to talk to boys, meaning, girls outside of your school. The more connection you have with more religious people - friends and adults - the easier it will be for you to make the transition.

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Teenagers can have "romantic love" -- as much as adults, and it is an illusion in both cases. It is the result of hormonal secretions from your and his glands. It feels awesome, but it’s only a feeling. It lasts, max, about 3 years, and that’s if you don’t break up before that, which is probable.

Real love is the result of two people living, working, and striving together, and it is comprised of respect and admiration and appreciation and mutual experience. It is not the romantic pie-in-the-sky-fireworks-smileyface-swoony thing you feel now.

Ignore it. It means nothing, no matter what it feels like. It’s like a drug - no, not "like"; it IS a drug - some liquid, mind altering substance that your body and brain created.

You're playing with fire. Get out while you can.

---

The issue is the definition of love, and it is not a hormonal reaction to some female (and yes, warm, fuzzy, emotional reactions can also be hormonal), yet that is precisely the cause of your feelings.

On the other hand, years of sharing life experiences together, working together, sharing goals and life itself in a way that no two other people can --- that is way more than mere hormones.

---

Understanding the Male-Female Dynamic'

[...]
Hashem made guy/girl relationships in such that they become dependent on each
other, stronger as a unit then they ever were individually. Some of his and her
strength and souls are donated to the unit, and a new entity is created stronger
than both of them put together.

That's good in a marriage. But very bad in a casual teenage relationship. This
"donating of strength" begins, but the guy is only going to stay around until
you dump or get dumped.

[...]

You don't need a psycho-emotional crutch draining your sensitivities and feelings
and pooling it into a collective entity that will vanish shortly, taking part of
your soul with it.

[...]

The teenage years are the WORST time to get into such a relationship. Your
emotions, feelings, and self-esteem are complicated enough as it is that you
don't need a guy in your life to make all that even worse.

[...]
Now Rav Moshe [Feinstein] ZTL [in Igros Moshe, Even HaEzer, IV:60] does NOT mean
that every boy/girl friendship is for the purpose of lust. The dynamics of mixed
gender friendships are so different than same gender friendships, and the reason
is because of the subtle but oh-so-obvious sexual dynamic taking place between
the parties.

When a guy and girl are talking, just observe how often they smile at each
other, (with or without intent), how often she flicks back her hair, how often
they make eye contact --- come on! - it's so, so obvious that even though they
don't have any intention of ever "doing anything", Hashem's mechanism for
guaranteeing the reproduction of the species is triggered here. Even in
so-called "platonic" relationships.

And how many "platonic" relationships developed into something more? Do you
think that happened overnight? Suddenly? Or did it develop slowly, starting
before either party even realized it?

When advertisers want to sell cars, they put a girl next to the car in the
picture.
[...]

Store owners - especially fast food places - prefer that their cashiers be
attractive, and that they wear makeup, because they know that guys say "keep the
change" rather than wait for their 5 or 10 cents, much more when the cashier is
attractive. The guy has no clue what's happening to him. That's the way guys
are. That's how Hashem made them.
[...]


We often engage in sexual behavior that we can't even feel. Do you notice the
fact that you say, "keep the change" more often to attractive cashiers?

Much of sexual behavior is subconscious. As an example of how powerful and subtle this is, take the fact that sexual abuse on kids often leads to really big
psychological problems later in life, and that often the kid will not even
remember the abuse. Sex has deep, deep psychological, subconscious, and even
metaphysical ramifications that you cannot dismiss by saying you don't "feel"
something. You can't always feel it, but somewhere something is happening.

The only question is, if it is so subtle, how do you know when sexual activity
is taking place within you? The answer is, you don't, but G-d does, and so he
gave us the Halachah.

IMPORTANT NOTE: This does NOT mean that all these subtleties "lead" to something
else. They do not have to lead to anything. It is the subtlety itself that the
Torah prohibited, not the long-term problems that may be associated with it.
[...]

---

Here's the thing. There is a difference between the desire for girls and all other desires in the world.

All other desires are dependent on a person's values (philosophy). Money, honor, power, all of them only tempt you if you value them. And therefore, you can fight your temptation for them either by resisting, or by changing your values (i.e. your philosophy). A person can say, I don't care about money. Or, I don't care about honor - it doesn't mean much to me. You can study the futility of all worldly temptations and then conclude intellectually that you reject pursuing them.

But not girls. The desire for girls is not a value or a philosophy, and no matter how big a philosopher or how wise a man you are, the desire for girls is still there. You can't undo or weaken it with your head, the way you can with the other Taavos.

You can be a "sameach b'chelko" and not want money' you can be a "sameach b'chlko" and not want Kovod; but the biggest "sameach b'chelko" will still want girls.

And as opposed to other "appetite" taavos, such as drugs or alcohol, you do not have to expose yourself to it in order to want it. If you never took drugs or drank, you may be curious, but the real Taavah comes after you take the drugs and get used to them. With girls, you don't have to give yourself the Taavah. It's there by itself and there's nothing you can do about it.

You didn't ask to want girls, you didn't do anything to make it happen, it's just there.

The Gemora (Shabbos 152a) quotes a posuk: "Ki hu amar vayehi" - Hashem decreed, and so it was!

"Rav Kahane said, this is a woman. She is just full of dirt and blood, yet everyone runs after her". Meaning, there's no logic behind it, Hashem said it should be that way, and it is. It's a Gezeiras Hakasuv.

This is probably why, when Chazal say the angels came down to this world demanding a chance to keep the Torah, the aveirah that defeated them was Arayos. Because even though the angels were physical then, they still retained their angelic intellects which told them philosophically that money honor and power are not worth pursuing in this world. And through their great understanding of the futility of these Tavvos they rejected them.

But women don't work that way. No matter how wise you are the Taavah is still there, so the Malachim were unable to undo their Taavah for Arayos.

The only way - the one and only way - to resist women is self discipline. Period. You can't use your THINKING to fight the Taavah here, you can only use your ACTIONS. You have to resist, discipline, and STAY AWAY.

This is why restraint from Arayos is called Kedusha (holiness) as opposed to refraining from any other sin. Refraining from other sins could be holiness, but it could also be simple wisdom. It could be you're a Sameach b'chlko. Even a non-religious guy would be happier if he was a Sameach B'chelko, so not running after money does not necessarily have to do with religion or holiness. As opposed to Arayos, where "EVERY PLACE you find restraint from Arayos, there you find holiness" (Rashi Kedoshim). Because there is only one possible reason for not doing Arayos -- self-discipline, and that's what we mean here by holiness.

This is also why we find more Gedorim and Siyagim (fences and safeguards) against Arayos than any other sin.

This is why, even though Sefardim always rule like the Bais Yosef even when the majority of poskim are against him, when it comes to issues of Arayos, writes the Chikrei Lev (II:180b), they are permitted to be strict, even against the Bais Yosef, with support of a majority of poskim.

So what you want here is normal. The fact that you want it is a Gezeiras Hakasuv. You're in the same boat with all guys in the world. The only way to avoid trouble here is to refrain. Don't answer this girl's calls. If you end up accidentally speaking to her, tell her you don't speak to girls and she should please not call. Hashem wants you to "want" girls, and He also wants to resist that desire. By resisting, you become holy.

If you do give in, it will be harder to pull out when you want to. So don't even start with girls. It's a slippery slope and it only leads down.

---

The poskim say that someone who does not believe his Teshuva helps makes a bracha l'vatala each morning when he says "chanun hamarbeh lisloach". The Rambam writes that even a rasha can do teshuva and be considered a tzadik overnight.

As far as the boy is concerned, whether that "love" of theirs was "real" is a matter of semantics - and doesn’t make a difference at all. Just because you love someone does not make them a good marriage partner, and certainly not your zivug.

This girl's brain is drenched in various hormonal chemicals that is messing with her objectivity, has caused her to do aveiros, and is instilling within her unreasonable amount of guilt (i.e. that if she does teshuva she still will not be forgiven). She needs some space between her and this guy, and a good friend to give her some guidance and chizuk. When she's put some distance between her and this guy, and her cerebrum dries up a bit, then she can decide if this guy is marriage material or not. As it is, she is in no position to make such a decision.

---

Tell the boy exactly what you think.

"I have to talk to you. I have a dilemma," say.

Tell him how much you care about him and like him, and tell him how amazing your conversations are, but "I have a dilemma. There’s a problem".

"What?" he will say.

"You're a guy", you will answer.

"Huh?" he will say.

Then explain to him that you so wish that he was a girl but since he's a guy you have a dilemma because of religious reasons, but on the other hand, he's him.

Tell him that in a way you like your relationship so much but it’s not good for you because he's a guy, and you don't know what to do. You want to give him the impression that you do want to break off but your connection to him is preventing you from fulfilling what you really want and know is best for you. And, that if you do remain in the relationship, you will always be confused and in doubt of it. Give him this impression, but don't say these things openly.

The idea is for HIM to say that you shouldn't speak anymore, because it's a very romantic, selfless thing for a guy to do when he's in the position that you just put him. He should be like, "I care about you, so I'm letting you go." Guys feel real good when they do that, and when they see that the girl is going to be confused about their relationship they usually figure that's the best way to go.

If he feels about you the way you do about him, he'll probably do it.

Of course, you should resist a bit, in order to show that you're not so eager to break up. "I don't know", you can say. Or, "that's amazing of you to say that." But at the end, you're out of there.

This way, it was HIS decision, and you made it clear that your dilemma has nothing to do with any imperfection in him or the relationship. I think it will work.

Or, you can say simply that you were busted by your Mom or your school and you can't continue the relationship or else (you're allowed to lie for this). You can also combine the two approaches and tell him that you were caught and it's part of why you're confused, or that your friends found out and you're scared that people are going to know and you're going to get thrown out of school etc. If you do this and he's any kind of mentsch he will cut you loose.

---

There is a great tape called Platonic Relationships by Rabbi Dovid Orlofsky. He's hysterical and what he said really hit home. Here is the link:

http://www.613.org/speakers/orlofsky.html

---

1) Psychologists agree that you should not smoke, rape, kill, or steal, no matte how much you want to. If sexual control is “repression”, where is the limit? Gratification on the spot, wherever, whenever, however? Every society has its rules of sexual morality, every society agrees that self-restraint is positive; the only question is how far it goes. There is no reason to say that the line between morality and repression lies squarely between the ethical expectations of Western Society and those of the Torah. At the other extreme of repression, is hedonism, which breaks down society and generates dissatisfaction as well. Where do we draw the line between hedonism and repression? Where American society says to? Where the Arab culture says to? Where 20th Century culture says to? Or perhaps where Aborigine culture says to? Perhaps in 200 years from now they will consider our society repressive? Who draws the line?
2) There is a difference between repression and self control. Repression is when you try to control something that cannot be controlled. The Torah does not demand anybody undo their sex drive. It demands only that certain behaviors not be done. Tznius can and is fulfilled by hundreds of thousands of Jews around the globe, and has been, for ages. Pathology has not resulted from any of this. To wit: Tznius behavior is something that can be controlled.
3) Repression is only relevant when something natural is being repressed. The Torah distinguishes between human Nature and appended human urges (the Yetzer Horah). People themselves cannot distinguish between them (that includes shrinks), but the Torah can, since it was given by G-d. Non-Tznius behavior is not an expression (“expression” is the opposite of “repression”) of Man the way he should be, but rather Man following his appended, synthetic urges, his Yetzer Horah. Kind of like a drug addict following his addiction. Controlling a s synthetic urge, no matter how real it is to the human being, is not within the realm of repression.
4) Most importantly, Hashem, the Giver of the Torah, is also the Manufacturer of man. He knows the insides of the human psyche, which is the seat of the human soul. If the Manufacturer recommends treating His product a certain way, common sense suggests his instructions be followed, for the sake of the product. Following the Manufacturer’s recommendations, namely, the Torah, only brings health, no matter what anybody may theoretically say.

When discussing the behavior of teenagers due to hormones, I’m talking in the 15 and under range. They are not few. And whether they are “pathetic” is irrelevant (I don’t think they are). I am generalizing, of course, because it is just an example of behavior, not a requirement for prohibition.

The point is that this Yetzer Horah works differently than others, and these are some examples. These girls are not nuts; they are not behaving this way because of some personality disorder. Pathetic or not, their behavior is normal. The fact that not every girl actually succumbs to this kind of behavior does not change that.

Dan lechaf zchut does not mean to ignore reality, see the Rambam in his commentary on the spot. It only means that when there are about equal odds of good and bad behavior, we tip the scales for the good.

---

Boy-Girl Relationships II

Your bashert is designated but if you deserve better, you will get better than your bashert (i.e. your bashert will change to someone better) and if you don’t deserve your bashert you won’t get him.

---

You should tell your boy/girlfriend that you are growing spiritually now and that if (s)he cares about you (s)he should let you go, since that is what is best for you now.

---

Hashem often allows good things to emerge from bad ones.

I know a Jew who became an atheist, and his Christian girlfriend dragged him to Church one day, which in the end led him to question and later discard his atheism. Eventually, he came back. If it wasn’t for his shiksa and her idolatry he would have remained an atheist.

Does that mean its OK to go out with shiksas? And to go to Church?

What about a guy who gets drunk, takes a drive, passes a red light, totals the car, and, laying there in the hospital, decides he has to straighten out. Does that mean drunk driving is OK?

It says nowhere that good things cannot come from bad - but that does not make them less bad.

---

Someone who has actual relations with someone else, not just thoughts about them, will have that person constantly follow them around in Olam habah - it’s a Gemora in Avodah Zorah 5a.

But the thoughts are assur regardless, under the laav of lo sasuru acharei eineichem.

The Teshuva for the thoughts - and relations as well - is the same as for everything else: you need to regret that you did it and resolve not to do it again.

Someone who did Teshuva has nothing to worry about from those aveiros in the next world. Nobody is going to follow them around. When a person does Teshuva the aveirah is erased in the next world. It never happened.

---

The Ibn Ezra says that we are only frustrated or jealous when we don't have something that we believe we could have had. But if there is something that we know we never had a chance for, we do not get hurt when we don’t get it.

He says it’s like when a princess gets married. Some prince may get hurt that she didn't marry him, but a peasant won't feel bad, because he knows the princess would never marry him anyway.

So, too, he says, anything that Hashem does not let us have means that we were not destined to have it. Ever. And that we could never have it. Never. Hashem decides who gets what in this world. Whatever we don't have, was never in the cards for us to have.

So, says the Ibn Ezra. Nobody really has reason to be jealous or hurt that they didn't get something. Because if they would really focus on the way it works, they would know that it was never destined for him anyway. Like the princess and the peasant.

You have to focus on the fact that if you didn’t get this person, it was never meant to be. It is better for you that you don’t have them, because if Hashem would have wanted you to have them, you would have. This girl is not destined for you. Before she was born, she was matched with someone else - it was never a possibility for you to get her. Hashem gives us exactly what He prepares for us in this world exactly what He wants us to have. What we don't get is not ours, and could never be. It’s another universe, and not within our grasp.

Of course you're not going to tell her to wait for you - that would be a jerky thing to do - but I do think that if she feels this way about you, deep down, she might wait anyway. That’s not to say she wont date; she probably will. But she will do so with this gnawing feeling similar to the feeling you had when you told her not to wait for you.

On the other hand, she may meet some guy she likes and end up getting engaged.

I would suggest being straight with her and telling her something like this:

We both know that I am not ready to get married; you are. I definitely need another year in Eretz Yisroel, because my learning is not where it should be yet and to me - and to you - that’s the most important thing in the world. And I still have no means of supporting a family.

It would be wrong of me to tell you to wait for me, but I would be lying if I said I didn't hope, deep down, that you would.

I really feel like you're the girl I can build a bais ne'eman with on the level that I want to be on when I'm married since we're both heading in the same direction.

I just don't know what to do now.

What you're leaving out of the picture is what she wants. Does she want to wait? Did you ask her? I suggest that, if you’re really into each other you ask her straight out.
So go for it. Put all your cards on the table. You’ll never regret telling her - but you may regret that you didn't.

---

Thinking bad thoughts does more damage to your soul since your thoughts are actually a part of your neshoma. Bad thought directly pollute your Neshomah. However, bad actions are a greater sin.

This is because a lesser sin can do more damage to you in the long run than a more sever sin. Like if someone jumps off the roof - its only one sin, but you ruined your chances for your future!

Someone cuts off their arms, they can't put on tefillin anymore.

Someone becomes friends with a very bad influence, it might not be as big a sin as eating Dominoes Pizza, but it may ruin you a lot more in the long run.

Same here -- bad thoughts aren’t as bad a sin as bad actions (generally speaking), but they pollute your soul more.

Exception: Certain thoughts are considered "actions" themselves, such as idolatrous thoughts, or apikorsus, or lewd thoughts. Those things are prohibited as sins themselves, as if they were actions. Generally, however, a thought-about sin is not considered a sin, even though it pollutes your soul.

---

Call whomever you are having shomer negiya issues with, let’s say your uncle for example, and discuss this with him before you meet him again.

Say something like "Uncle, you know I'm religious, right?"

Uncle: "Right."

You: "You know I keep Shabbos, eat kosher, pray..."

Uncle: "Uhuh."

You: "Well, uncle, I got a problem, and I hope you...won't...[at this point, lower the tone of your voice to almost inaudibility] ... get upset with . . . me ...."

Uncle (puzzled, almost worried): "What is it? What's the matter?"

You: "I, ah, am [lower your voice again] not allowed to...touch...my....ah...uncle. Or [go even lower] ... ... be touched by him."

Uncle: "Whew! That's it? No problem! Tell the Moderator that his idea worked!"

Seriously, do something like that, where you don't accuse him of being bad, or non-religious, or you look holier-than-thou.

What you want to do is make it YOUR issue, not his, this has to do with YOU and the fact that you are religious, not the fact that he is not.

And if you build it up, he'll be thinking who knows what, so when you finally tell him what the issue really is, he'll be relieved.

It should work.

---

There are several general rules of messed up families. One is that guys and girls, if they get hit (damaged), get damaged in different ways.

Usually, a guy who comes from a place where relationships are abusive and exploitative end up creating relationships where they abuse or exploit their partner. Girls, on the other hand, coming from the same place, end up entering into relationships where they get abused and exploited by their partner.

Guys end up the aggressor, girls end up the victim. But just as sure as guys find girls to victimize, girls find guys that will victimize them.

It's not always like this, but from experience, I can tell you that's where the odds are.

Why this is so, I can't say for sure. Maybe it's because the guys end up like their fathers and the girls end up like their mothers, and usually it’s the father who is the aggressor. Who knows?

So again, not everyone who comes from a messed up home gets run over. But just because you don't use or abuse guys doesn't mean you reached the other side of the street safely. If you see a pattern in your life where guys you are with end up abusive, seek help. Believe it or not, there are girls who have like these "subconscious radars" that can pick out abusive guys and end up getting involved with them. Let's make sure you're not one of them.

---

Boy-Girl Relationships I

If you are ready to get married, and the reason for talking to a girl is to see if she is an appropriate marriage partner, then it is okay. If you are not ready to get married, or the purpose of you talking is other than to screen her marriage, then it is still wrong, regardless of her positive influence.

Being friends with a girl is not the same as meeting in order to explore whether you are compatible for marriage. Being compatible for friends is not the same as being compatible for marriage. It won't help you at all.

---

The Chazon Ish said regarding shaking a woman’s hand NOT that it is chok vlo yaavor, but Yehoreg vlo yaavor. I refer you to the Steipler's writings. It is black on white. If you were taught differently then you were taught wrong. I would imagine that would be due to some reckoning that some teacher came up with where he figured that if he teaches his class its yehoreg v'al yaavor, they will not accept it or freak out of get "turned off" or whatever, so he took the liberty of making it palatable. Trust me - this well meaning but wrongheaded idea comes up often with teachers.

The Shulchan Aruch's statement, as ALL statements in Shulchan Aruch and Poskim, are not relative to the amount of aveiros you have been doing, but are law, meant for everyone. Had you seen such a statement in a mussar sefer or a chasidishe sefer, we could discuss it. But Halachah is meant for everyone.

And therefore, the standards used when the Bais Yosef in his Halachic Code of Jewish Law, meant for everyone, when he said stay far, far away from women are standards that are absolute. The fact that you are on your way up is great, no question about that, and nobody, especially not me, can know your personal nisyonos and how much, if at all. you are responsible for not fulfilling the Halachah based on your capabilities, but that does not change the halachah. It does not change your GOAL. It may make your culpability less, but not the violation.

It’s like someone is found guilty of murder in court. At the sentencing, it is brought up that the victim had recently murdered the defendant’s wife and raped and tortured his children. The judge may let him off with a relative slap on the wrist - but unless he can claim insanity, he is guilty. Guilty, but not as culpable as someone who killed in a mugging.

You need to separate violation of the law and culpability. The above case does not mean the murder laws are relative - it means the culpability is relative. That is true halachicaly as well. Hakol lefi hanisayon. But the halachah is the same.

There is no way in the world - no way at all - to interpret the shulchan aruch's words "stay far far away from women" to mean merely "don't touch them". That's simply not what it says. He would have said that had he meant that.

What would you say to a child molester who wants to do teshuva? A rapist, molester, pervert, et al, who is still Jewish and still obligated to repent. Do you think he can use his background and his previous actions as a benchmark to interpret the shulchan aruch's statement? Can he say "Well, for me, staying far far away from women means . . . "

You get the idea.

As for Rav Moshe, he does say explicitly, even seeming platonic relationships between boys and girls are assur min hatorah - its towards the end of the teshuva. Look it up.

Although there are people who believe that shaking hands is permitted to avoid embarrassment, the Steipler writes in his letters in the name of the Chazon Ish that it is absolutely prohibited. It's simple logic: If someone asked you to call them on Shabbos and you telling them sorry I cant do that would embarrass them for asking, would you me mechalel Shabbos to prevent their embarrassment? Or if someone offered you non-kosher food and refusing would embarrass them would you eat treif?

And what if a woman tried to hug this rabbi - innocently, at a wedding for instance, or even to kiss him - also one of those social kisses - would he respond in kind so as not to embarrass the woman?

There is no heter to do an aveirah because someone else did not realize that you would not do it and feel awkward that they asked you to.


To say that shaking hands is permitted because it is not derech chibah is against the halachic ruling of the Chazon Ish, Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Steipler and others. There is nothing close to any equal and opposite opinions that say otherwise. Although there was a rav long ago in America who rules that way, Rav Moshe writes that is you should not rely on the heter. There are no such authorities who disagree.

In any case, comparing it to taking change from a woman is an error, because there, you have no intention nor desire to touch her hand. The contact was accidental. In this case, you are purposely and willingly taking her hand.

---

The Amshinover did not say that Shlomo Carlebach had a heter to do what he did and he did not mean that Shlomo Carelbach gets gan eden for hugging women. He meant that even though Shlomo is going to gehennom for what he did, he also has zechusim for bringing people back. If he did mean anything to the effect that Shlomo gets reward for hugging women, he is simply wrong. The Amshoniver Rebbe has no authority to contradict the Torah.

In fact, Shlomo himself used to say that he is going to gehenom for what he does, but he gladly does so to help anther Jews. This was unfortunately a terrible anti-Torah hashkafa of his, and it is based on a twisted, mistaken interpretation of a statement in the Noam Elimelech and some other chasidishe seforim.

Would you eat a treif hamburger in McDonalds with a tinok shenishba if by doing so you would maybe be able to show him that there are Orthodox Jews who are "mentchen" and will eat with them? If they will interpret your not eating in McDonalds as "snubbing them" would you feel you are allowed to eat?

And what would be if some member of the opposite sex expects you to do more than talk to him? Or shake his hand? What if he expects a lot more? How far will you go to "make a good impression" on a tinok shenishba? What if you were with a group of tinokos shenishbu one evening and they all started to violate serious prohibitions with each other, and if you don’t join them, they will consider you a nerdy, outdated, idiotic, fanatical Taliban loser? How do you decide how for to go in violating the Torah to make an impression on those who - granted, due to no fault of their own - were raised to act like animals?

Your reckonings of "what will convince Jews" is irrelevant. Hashem KNEW when he made the Torah that one day there will be non religious Jews - and STILL he said don't do these things.

---

Shomer Negiyah is a commandment. No 2 sides about it.

It is not wise for teenagers to rely halachah lammaseh on their own svoros against poskim. Rav Moshe has several proofs and rules halachicaly that it is assur for boys and girls to be friends - even if it only means talking. I know of no poskim who disagree.

---

The assumption that the reason for the mechitzah in the Beis Hamikdash was to prevent talking, although such a thing is said in meforshim, is a minority opinion, and not at all the simple pshat. The majority say that the reason for the mechitzah in the bais hamikdash was to prevent looking at the women, not talking.

Be that as it may, whatever the reason for the mechitzah, it does not show that outside the BHM"K it was permitted. The Mechitzah enforces a behavior, it does not demand any new behavior. Outside the BHMKDSH staring - or talking - could have been prohibited as well, but chazal did not deem it necessary to enforce the already existing prohibition because the holiness of the bais hamikdash demands that we make sure inappropriate behavior does not take place. It does not mean that the behavior is appropriate outside the BHMKSH.

On the contrary - why did they need a mechitzah? Let them just make a gezeirah prohibiting talk? Obviously they were afraid people would do it despite the issur, so they needed a mechitzah. If so, why would you say it was permitted outside of the BHAMKSH? Perhaps people were doing it b'issur there too?

Besides - what would you like chazal to do? Be gozer to make mechitzos in the street? Since that is not feasible, it proves nothing from the fact that chazal only made a mechitza in the BHMKDSH.

But never mind all that -- nobody said its assur halahicly to say good Shabbos. It’s just not the proper thing to do.

Being friends with girls is halachily assur, as Rav Moshe proves.

If the Mechitza is transparent, then according to Rav Moshe it is kosher, but according to the majority of poskim it is not.

But even according to Rav Moshe, the men would be allowed to daven there only if the women are properly dressed. There is a separate halachah that you cannot pray in front of improperly dressed women, even if the mechitza is kosher.

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Shomer:
Father – doesn’t apply
Brothers – doesn’t apply
Uncles - applies

Technically, sitting on your father's lap is not prohibited, but would be considered unseemly in public.

In public, in general, we do minimize physical contact between adult children and their immediate relatives, not because it is a religious sin, but because it is considered tasteless. Sometimes it is considered downright ugly - see Rambam Isurei Biah 21:6,7.

It makes no difference if the uncle raised her, nor if she never met her biological father before. It depends on blood, not upbringing.

Grandparents are like parents in this respect.

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Those "people" who believe that the issur of neguyah is mere "advice" are absolutely 100% wrong. It's simply a lie, or perhaps gross ignorance. Anyone able to read a Shulchan Aruch straight (especially with the sources, but even without) can see this black and white. It is absolutely halachah, and not only is it not less than any other halachah, it is if anything, more stringent! According to many poskim, it is yehoreg v'al yaavor, because it is an abizrayhu d'giluy arayos. But it is definitely not just "advice".

As far as touching women for medical purposes, nothing is pikuach nefesh unless, well, unless its life threatening (if something is a threat to limb but not life, it is not pikuach nefesh but it may be permitted due to a different halachah, i.e. "ones rachmana patrie", which is not the same as pikuach nefesh).

The reason doctors treat women even though it is not pikuach nefesh (nor "ones") is that the prohibition of negiyah to begin with was not meant in a case where the contact is part of a professional, utilitarian procedure - that kind of contact is far from "chibah", affectionate touching. Therefore, no heter is needed.

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Online talking can lead to many other things. Often, in fact, it's easier for a person to get in that kind of trouble starting with an online relationship than in real life. There are people - married people in particular, who have gotten into such trouble because of online "safe" relationships who never would think of doing anything like that face to face.

Because online is anonymous, you are less inhibited with what you say. Sometimes by the time you know it, you're in deep.

But in any case, online chat has certainly led to worse, that's #1.

#2, even if you never meet the other person, there is plenty of prohibited activity that can be done through cyberspace anyway.

So it sure can lead to worse. It has, often.

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The Halachos of Ervah - Negiyah, Talking etc. - apply to cousins like anyone else. The difference between a cousin and strangers is that with a cousin there would probably be more utilitarian, non-social, reasons to have contact, such as family functions etc. But to have a plain friendly relationship with your cousin, like to call him for nothing except to say whets up how you doing etc. is under the same category as having such a friendship with any other guy.

Never mind first cousins for a moment, let's talk about second or third cousins - do you think they too should have social relationships because it's important to have a "kesher" in the family? And that it's "ridiculous" for Halachah to prohibit it? Or fifth or sixth cousins? Who decided precisely how related people have to be in order for it to be "ridiculous" not to have different-sex socializing? And what yardstick did you use to decide this?

And never mind cousins. Isn't it important for all of Klall Yisroel to have a Kesher? So isn't it then "ridiculous" for the Torah to say boys and girls - who are all part of Klall Yisroel - shouldn't have a Kesher?

Or maybe, if parts of a family live far from each other, and they both work hard, so that they have no time to contact each other during the week, we should permit them to make phone calls on Shabbos because it's important to keep a Kesher???

Hashem revealed to us, in His benevolence, that boys and girls socializing is damaging to the neshomah. That includes cousins as well. This Halachah is no different than any other Halachah which nobody feels is expendable for such reasons. It's a simple Issur D'Oraisa.

And besides, the question is a non-issue anyway. This actually happens often, not with cousins dying, but with simple different gender cousins. The cousins IYH get married and then you have more same-gender cousins. I have numerous nieces that I never had much to do with on a social level, but their husbands are my friends. Don't worry so much about the terrible things that you think will happen by fulfilling the Torah. Hashem is smarter than we are. His Torah doesn't harm us.

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While it is true of course that any psak can change if the circumstances change, that is only if the circumstances are Halachicly important to the psak. If, for instance, Rav Moshe would tell someone that their metal microwave can be Kashered, does not mean you can assume that the Psak applies to your plastic microwave, since the material is germane to the psak. But if Rav Moshe said that someone's blue microwave can be Kashered you do have a right to assume that just because your microwave is yellow it wouldn't make a difference. Color is not Halachicly relevant.

So, too, when Rav Moshe quotes Avos DRav Nosson, and Rishonim who say, across the board, without any qualification, according to Rav Moshe, that it is prohibited to engage in social interaction with members of the opposite gender, then that’s the Halachah. The fact that a person cares or not is NOT germane to the Halachah. It’s no different than a guy saying he has a different hair color so maybe the Halachah does not apply to him.

There is zero sense in the idea that if someone doesn't care about the Halachah it changes for him. If someone doesn't care about eating pork does that mean he is permitted to do it?

About rebuking someone for talking to the opposite gender, that's different. There, it does depend on whether the guy will listen to you. So if the guy doesn’t care what the Halachah is, you have no obligation to tell him to stop, since he won’t listen anyway. But that doesn’t mean he’s not violating the Halacha. The same thing applies to eating pork - if someone doesn't care about the Halachah, you don’t have to correct him, since he will not listen anyway. But of course pork is still prohibited.

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The prohibition of socializing has nothing to do with what "can happen". It has to do with the fact that the Torah said it is prohibited.

A lot of things "can" happen. That's why we don’t make Gezeiros the way Chazal did. But when Chazal held that the risks are not worth taking they made a Gezeirah that the Torah says is binding.

But in our case we have a simple issue of the Torah saying, to coin a phrase, Thou Shalt Not Socialize With Guys. The reason this bothers you is because you have been used to the discussion of socializing revolving around the bad things that "might happen" if you do, implying that socializing itself is OK, but dangerous. So now you ask anything is dangerous, depending on how much self-control you exert.

But the reality is that that entire discussion is a mistake. Ask yourself this: Never mind talking to guys -- what’s wrong with actually hooking up with them? Is that also only "bad" because it may lead to sex?

Or what's wrong with sex? Is it because it may lead to...pregnancy? I mean, in secular society none of this is really terrible, so how did anyone decide where the line is for what’s "bad" and what is merely potential leading to the "bad"?

The answer is that we have to get this whole idea out of our heads. It’s a typical propaganda and brainwashing tactic - and here the Yetzer Horah is using it - to dismiss someone else's answer by asking the wrong question. Here, by framing the issue in terms of "Will talking to guys lead to something bad?" the Yezter Horah tells you not to understand why others are so gung-ho on not talking to guys. But will it lead to worse is not the issue. The Torah says it is Assur. Period. Not because it will lead to worse but because it IS worse. In and of itself. The Torah doesn’t want boys and girls to be friends. Why? Well, why doesn't the Torah want boys and girls making out with each other? That you do understand?

Since when do we ask "why" the Torah prohibited something? Only since the Yetzer Horah wants us to think that Tznius is some kind of secular ethical - moral issue. The reality is that it is much more than that. It is the physical manifestation of Holiness, and holiness is a concept that only Hashem can define.

And He has defined it.

On His terms, not ours. Like the rest of the Torah.

One day we're going to thank Hashem for revealing to us the secret of Holiness, rather than letting us grope in our blindness to try to figure it out on our own. Because this way, He is giving us the road map to success. Its up to us if we want to follow it, or think that we know better.

Let's not second guess Hashem.

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The prohibition of Lo Sikravu applies to all ages equally. There is no logic in saying that an explicit Torah prohibition is "not talking" about teenagers.

Rav Moshe addressed the Derech Chibah issue in the Teshuva, saying that whenever boys and girls are friends, even innocently, that is considered Assur, like Derech Chibah.
Rav Moshe tells us that girls are forbidden to talk to boys not because it's going to be a distraction but because the Torah prohibited it M'Doraisa. Period. That includes cousins.

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If you are saying good morning as a friend, it is not the good morning that is prohibited per se but the being friends. Cashiers say good morning to their customers even though they are strangers. That is ok.

Obviously, some things cannot be quantified: The girl is not your friend, no social friendship between you and her. She goes about her way and you go about yours. Whether or not to say hello would depend on your age, her age, and the circumstances. Teenage boys have no business saying even a casual good morning to their teenage girl neighbors. If she’s like 50 and married, then out of respect you want to greet her. But that respect does not apply to a teen aged girl next door.

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Women should not teach High School boys.

But women teaching little kids is not the same as kids growing up together and then ending up casual friends. That does not happen with a teacher.

Being a teacher of girls is not the same as being their peer. There is no Issur of Lo Sikravu to be their teacher, just their peer.
If we would have women teachers who could take the place of the rabbis in the Bais Yaakovs then we would certainly prefer that. But as a rule, the women teachers cannot duplicate the knowledge of the rabbis, and especially nowadays, if the girls do not get the proper answers, there could be trouble.

So if we could deal without men teaching the girls, it would be wonderful. In some communities they don't. But in others men do teach girls - even via live interaction in a classroom - certainly electronically.

It's a similar case with babysitting, although in that case there may be yichud problems.

As long as it’s not a friend relationship there’s no lo sikravu. Women are allowed to come to rabbis for sholom bayis and other personal issues as well.

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The communities that are rejected (as unacceptable, not as unJewish, by the way) because of their short skirts or mixed swimming pools are not rejected because of the sins themselves, but because they officially believe in such behavior.

If you speak Loshon Horah you violate the Torah. But if you say "I see nothing wrong with short skirts", you're disagreeing with the Torah.

It's like 2 people who are caught speeding. The first comes to court and says "Yes I was speeding, and I did it because I wanted to get home early". He's guilty, no question.

But the other says to the judge "I think there's nothing wrong with speeding". He's not only speeding, he's revolting against the authority of the court.

When someone speaks Loshon Horah he is violating the Torah. When someone says "I don't see anything wrong with mixed swimming" he is rebelling against its authority.

When someone does a sin because he "doesn't think there's anything wrong with it" it becomes a different sin. A very severe one. If an entire community does it, the Rambam calls it "Ir Hanidachas".

That's why, he says, Yehoshua wanted to annihilate the tribes of Dan, Reuven, and 1/2 of Menashe for bringing sacrifices outside of Shiloh. The sacrifices weren't a capital crime. But a community getting together deciding "We don't think there's anything wrong with bringing sacrifices outside of Shiloh" is. It's Ir Hanidachas.

Another example: The Akeidas Yitzchok tells of a problem his community was having (about 500 years ago). There were many who were involved in adulterous relationships. Some rabbis suggested a solution: They should institutionalize Pilagshim. Even though they are prohibited, they are better than adultery.

But the idea was quickly abandoned - because even though adultery is worse than concubines, when the community officially allows concubines, the sin is magnified a thousandfold, as the institutionalization of sin takes on a life of its own, becoming a sin in itself.

So two people can do the same act but be guilty of different sins. The one who sins because he wants money or pleasure is guilty of whatever sin he did. But the one who sins because he "doesn't see anything wrong" with it is disagreeing with G-d: And that is a different sin altogether: Kefirah (denying the Torah).

That is what distinguishes one sin from the next.

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Coed schools are surely assur - the Gemora says clearly in Sukkah 52a that men and women must be separated even during a hesped speech, all the more so during regular lectures. The Meiri (kiddushin 81a) says that even little children are not allowed to sit in class together because they will get used to being together and it will be difficult to separate them later (we see this all over these boards when girls say "I grew up with my boy neighbor" etc.)

That's just the beginning. Shas and poskim are full of exhortations to keep boys and girls separate.

Coed day schools are usually not relevant to this discussion. The idea behind them was that without those schools the kids would be in public school, and mixed anyway. Worse than mixed. So a coed school is a step up for them, and does not cause them to mix.

Saying that these schools show coeducation is permitted is like saying we see from Hatzolah that driving on Shabbos is permitted.

But even those schools were very controversial, for several reasons.

As far as the idea that coeducation is not only permitted, but necessary, because if you separate boys and girls they will not know how to resist temptation of interacting normally etc etc, this is falsified by the fact that the hundreds of thousands of Bnei Torah in the world who do not mingle with the opposite gender are not being irresistibly tempted later in life, as well as not being unable to function normally. It’s just simple reality. On the contrary, the Gemora says about that this particular temptation, "the more you feed it the hungrier it gets; the more you starve it, the less hungry it gets".

Unless you are maybe Rav Ovadiah Yosef or ybd"l Rav Yosef Engel, that fact that you cannot find the source for prohibiting coed schools does not mean it does not exist. Please see the above quoted Gemora and the Meforshim there. Also see Igros Moshe YD 1:137, Shevet Levi OH 29, Yechavah Daas 4:46.

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It’s not simple that handshakes are non-affectionate. Chibah doesn’t have to mean messing around. It means friendly too. Rav Moshe says it’s not a reliable heter to shake hands because its not derech chibah.

Also, if there is any hanoah whatsoever, then it is assur regardless of the prior intent. it is based on this factor that the Steipler writes - and he says the Chazon Ish agrees as well - that any such physical contact is prohibited.

Even in a case of a professional doing his work, such as a doctor, we allow it because "hoanach lahem l'yisrael" for refuah (so says Rav Yosef Chaim Zonenefeld ZTL in Simlas Chaim).

You are allowed to hand something to a guy and vice versa; you're just not allowed to touch him.

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The prohibition is friendly talk, and especially being friends, as opposed to just a statement to them or from them. It is not possible to quantify this. At the Shabbos table, talk between teenage boys and girls should be minimized of course, but not to the point where it gets ridiculous, like where you refrain from asking him to pass the horseradish. Or to ask a question about something that was said. The idea is not to socialize and to avoid friendly chatting, not to avoid communication where there is a legitimate purpose.

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"A person must stay far, far away from the women, and it is prohibited to signal with your hand, to hint with your eyes, to any prohibited women. It is furthermore prohibited to laugh together with them and to be frivolous in her presence, or to watch her beauty. Even to smell her perfume is forbidden...."

Of course, none of this means that you can't see the woman for normal reasons, such as out for your windshield to make sure you don’t run her over, or things like that. Regarding going in the street, the Gemora says that you should avoid places where women are known to congregate, if possible.

In other words, we are allowed to function normally, but we must try to minimize as much as possible casual interaction with women.

It says don’t talk "too much" to your wife. Rabeinu Bachya says it means that there are certain things that you should not tell your wife under some circumstances. As an example, he says if someone said something derogatory about you, and by telling the incident to your wife she will respect you less because of what this person said about you, then you should not tell her. It means stuff like that.

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You draw the line where (a) you are able to and (b) where you choose to. The higher you are, the more you want to stay away from Tumah. And the more you stay away, the higher you get. There are certain Halachos that are minimum standards, but Kedushas Ha'Aynayim goes way beyond that.

There is no limit. The less you see of Pritzus the better.

And shmiras ha'aynayim goes beyond pritzus. Avodah zarah and other forms of Tumah are also part of it, but Pritzus is first and foremost in this catagory.

Regarding Halachos, there is a Machlokes in the Poskim whether the prohibition of looking at women means staring at them (that is, looking at them because you want to look) or if you have to Halachicly avoid seeing women whenever possible.

As I said above, everyone agrees that even if it is not Halachicly prohibited, it is meritorious not to look at women at all. In fact, one of the proofs to the opinions that you MAY see women if you’re not intentionally looking at them is the fact that the Gemora says a Talmid Chacham does not recognize specific women. From this we see, that only a Talmid Chacham is on this level, but average people are not required to be on that level (Yam shel Shlomo Kesuvos).

The Shulchan Aruch (EH 21) writes that if you are "mistakel" ("stare") at even the small finger of a woman because you want to enjoy it, it is the same as if you stared at the her nakedness.

So looking at a woman because she is pretty is prohibited, regardless of whether she is dressed Tzniusdik or not.

The Mishna Brurah (75:7) also rules that incidental seeing of a woman without getting pleasure is permitted halachicly, but wrong by way of Mussar - though an Adam Chashuv should avoid even seeing.

The Bach holds that regarding the parts of a woman that Halachicly should be covered, it is prohibited even to see them; the parts that may be exposed, it is prohibited only to intentionally stare.

However, other opinions state that even seeing a woman must be avoided if possible. These are Chida (Psach Ainaim Avodah Zarah 20), and Igros Moshe (OH 40) who rules that in the street you should look down and away from women, to the extent possible, and when a woman comes to a rabbi to talk he is obligated to avoid looking directly in her face.

So it is a machlokes, halachicly, if you must avoid even casually looking at women where possible. The Shulchan Aruch and Mishna Brura rule it is not a problem, but everyone agrees that it is meritorious and holy to be strict in the matter.

Obviously, with the exception of many Chasidim and Chareidi communities in Eretz Yisroel, the lifestyle that most Orthodox Jews live makes it very difficult to do anything but rely on the lenient poskim in this matter. That's fine. But we always need to remember that we would be a holier people if we would be able to be more careful in distancing men and women. So many problems happen because we are not careful in this matter. The problem is especially existent in Modern orthodox communities where men and women being casual friends is considered a perfectly wonderful thing, and sometimes even healthier than not. This attitude clearly disagrees with the Torah, and the extent of mixing allowed in these communities clearly violates the Halachah as well.

Even if we are not to as holy as we would want to be, we should always wish we were better, and we should always know in what direction "better" lies.

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Staring at men, though obviously not a righteous practice, is not halachicly forbidden - which is why there is no mechitza in shul that prevents the women from seeing the men. However, lo sasuru, which forbids hirhurim, does apply to women as well - like all laavim do.

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KOL ISHA - HALACHOS

The Gemora (Brachos 24a) derives the prohibition of Kol Isha from a posuk in Shir HaShirim (2:14). Here we happen to be talking about saying Shema (or learning Torah - Mordechai ad loc.) while hearing a woman's voice. However, in Gemorah Kiddushin 70a and Sotah 48a it is clear that under any circumstances - even without Shema - Kol Isha is prohibited. (There is a discussion in the Rishonim regarding differences between Kol Isha during Shema vs. other times – during Shema it may be more strict, or more lenient. The above is the bottom line Halachah as recorded in Shulchan Aruch).

There is a disagreement in the poskim regarding whether only a singing voice of a woman is prohibited or even plain conversation. The Rambam (Teshuvos, mekitzei nirdamim, II:224) seems to hold that even a non-singing voice of a woman is prohibited. This non-singing prohibition may be limited to a friendly or even affectionate voice, as opposed to plain business, for instance, which may be permitted even according to these opinions.

Achronim (Magen Avraham 75:6, Beis Shmuel 25:4, and others) conclude that the speaking voice of a woman is permitted. There is discussion in Poskim regarding voice that is not quite singing, but not exactly plain conversation either.

There are poskim who permit hearing the blended voices of men and women singing together (Chasan Sofer aovdas hayom, taharas hayadayim 14). Others disagree (see Otzar haPoskim 21:1).

If you have never seen the woman whose voice you are listening to, the Maharam Shick (Even HaEzer 53) would permit listening. It is a matter of controversy in the poskim whether the Maharam Shick would permit in such circumstances even an actual singing voice or merely an “affectionate” greeting voice. Knowing what the woman looks like from photos qualifies as having “seen” her, even if you never met her live (Yabia Omer I OH 6).

Kol Isha on the radio or a CD is a topic of disagreement in the Poskim. It may not be Kol Isha because it is not actually the voice of a woman but the voice of a machine. However, even the lenient Poskim agree that such practice should be avoided as it is “mechuar”, even if not Halachicly prohibited.

Whether you can listen you your wife, when Nidah, is a big controversy in the Poskim. Rav Moshe (YD II, 75) rules that you should be machmir.

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You’re not responsible for your taavos. Hirhurim are thoughts that are imagined intentionally.

You are not responsible for things that "pop" into your head unintentionally. That is, unless, those random thoughts were triggered by something else that you did intentionally, for example, if a person acts in an improper manner, for instance, then besides being responsible for the behavior itself, he is also responsible for any effects of the voluntary behavior, including involuntary thoughts.

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